Pumping gas in Oregon

I’ve been out of the loop, traveling along the beautiful Oregon coast.  So I missed the whole Harriett Miers blog tsumani.  Believe it or not, I don’t have strong feelings on that subject, which probably proves that this issue affects you inversely to your distance from Washington. 

Now for what really matters:  in Oregon, the legislators think you ought to be able to kill yourself, but not pump your own gas. A little research reveals that the anti-self-service law has been on the books since 1951, is supposedly intended to protect against accidents with gasoline, and survives to protect the disabled. 

Of course this stupid law mainly protects gas stations from competition by Wal-Marts.  The safety explanation is nonsense, particularly given (1) safer pumps; and (2) the fact that the high school kids handling multiple pumps don’t watch for overflows as well as customers themselves would.  The ADA already protects the disabled. 

There are all kinds of stupid anti-competitive laws on the books, but this one really mystifies me. Since the law is a massive inconvenience for customers, who surely pay higher prices, have to wait for service and have fewer places to buy gas, and hurts retailers, the mystery is how the law has survived.  One would think that a political coalition of retailers and consumers could beat the disabled and the gas station owners. On the other hand, maybe not if you add to the gas stations the smaller retailers that would find it harder to compete with Wal-Marts plus gas pumps.

Anyway, I would appreciate it if someone would get this law repealed in the next day or so before I have to buy gas in Oregon again.

Watch for weightier posts this weekend.

Comments

[Cathy]

You assume that Oregonians are all miserable with this situation. By proxy, you'd also imagine that New Jersey's residents would be equally appalled, since New Jersey is the other state with a self-service ban.

I can't speak for Oregonians, but as someone who grew up in New Jersey, I think it's fair to say that it's a very popular rule, and that's why it's lingered. Your assumptions simply don't hold: there are plenty of gas stations, and gas in New Jersey is vastly cheaper than in neighboring states. Now, MAYBE the cheaper gas is due to different tax levies - I don't really know. But the point is that nobody feels they are paying extra for what is actually an enormous convenience. Not only do you not have to pump your gas yourself, but you also don't have to get out of the car to pay. Even with the invention of pay-at-the-pump it's still quicker in NJ to just hand your cash or card to the attendant. And in the winter, it's REALLY convenient to have someone pump your gas.

It's also not quite clear how the rule hurts retailers. Since every gas station needs an attendant, it's hard to see where there would be a competitive disadvantage. Maybe there might be for smaller stations, since the manpower-per-pump ratio might be worse than at the bigger stations, but small stations have their own cachet in the towns they serve (eg, it's sometimes nice to be served by someone in your community). But if this rule hurts anyone, I would think it would be the mom-and-pop stations and not the Walmarts as you suppose who can better achieve economies of scale.

And finally, as far as gas spills go, I can't begin to tell you about the environmental destruction I encountered this summer at a self-serve station in Iowa... Had there been any attendant manning the pumps, it likely wouldn't have happened, and even if it had, it would have been cleaned up well before I had to wade through an enormous puddle of gasoline...

[Larry Ribstein]

1. If people like attendant-serve so much, why wouldn't at least some gas stations voluntarily offer it? I'm only against prohibiting self-serve, not for mandating it.
2. Oregon gas prices must be higher than they otherwise would be unless gas station owners are eating labor costs or attendants are working for free.
3. If you want to determine safety by anecdotes, then here's one: At one station where I bought gas, a single high school kid was attending several cars at nine different pumps. If the auto cut-off hadn't worked for every car, there would have been an accident. It will take more than anecdotes to convince me this is safer than self-pump. Also, why do 48 states and many thousands of gas station owners not seem to mind exploding gas stations and puddles of gas?

[Robert Schwartz]

Harriet Souter

[Cathy]

Hmmm... well, the undercurrent of your post is that you seem personally afronted that you weren't able to pump your own gas, and I seem to be personally afronted that you would dare to question the Wonderfulness that is mandatory full-service gas stations. Random anedotes may be just what the situation calls for...

But in seriousness, I would question your assumptions and assertions of harm. In the NJ example, for instance, I really don't think it's having a harmful effect. Indeed, there are people who drive over the border to NJ to buy their gas, where it is cheaper and more convenient. (So even if NJ were to have a lower tax on gasoline than neighboring states, it can make up that revenue on volume, I suppose. And the gas stations can recover their labor costs, if they are really so burdensome.)

But even in Oregon where the cross-border business is less of an issue, it's still a fixed market area with everyone operating under the same rule. Is that really so harmful? Gas is sold, and I still don't think there's any hit to driver convenience. Plus I'd imagine you're already paying for the labor costs, since you usually can't buy gas from an unmanned gas station. As long as the attendant is there, why not have him pump the gas?

I'd also question whether the situation is really driving out vendors and thus making gas more expensive. In the California Bay Area there's a lack of competition, but it obviously has nothing to do with a full-service rule (there's no mandate there). So even if in Oregon you could demonstrate a lack of competition, it would be hard to attribute it to this particular rule.

My suspicion is that there are other laws states have that pertain to gasoline sales which have a greater affect on price, competition, and convenience than this particular one does.

[Kate Litvak]

Larry: I vividly recall reading an econ paper showing significant price effects of mandatory full-service gas stations (controlling for a variety of things, of course). Alas, it's not on SSRN or NBER, and I am too lazy for a more extensive search.

The real question is why the citizens of Oregon and New Jersey don't rebel against these absurd laws, and why anyone except gas station attendants would even want to keep those laws on the books. In a fiercely competitive market of retail gas-sale outlets, any surcharge for "service" should be competed down to the bare minimum just enough to compensate for the costs of keeping attendants.

On a positive side, at least Oregon doesn’t prohibit grocery shoppers from carrying their own bags to their cars without an assistance from a store clerk…

[Will Baude]

I had always thought that such laws were kept around by those who owned large numbers of gas stations because the increased costs of having the attendants was supposed to be some sort of barrier to entry.

Now that I think about it, it's not clear that makes any sense, since hourly labor is a pretty variable cost. Hmm.

[Sigivald]

Every few years here in Oregon there'll be a ballot measure to repeal the stupid "you're too incompetent to do what an untrained high school kid will do for you in a minute" law.

One common argument against repeal is one not mentioned here; that it creates a lot of unskilled jobs for high school kids and the otherwise unemployable.

(I have no instant opinion as to whether or not that is economic BS, though I lean towards it probably being so. I just wanted to bring to light another common argument used by supporters of the law.)

[Kate Litvak]

Sigivald: you are exactly right. That's what I meant when I wrote that only gas-station attendants have the interest in preserving this law. I should have added "only gas-station attendants and people who are concerned about the welfare of gas-station attendants."

[Cathy]

I represent the people who don't want to get out of their cars to pump their own gas...

I just don't think that without the rule requiring it, full service wouldn't last, but at the same time we wouldn't see any appreciable savings in self-service. Rather, I suspect full-serve would get more expensive, and self-serve would stay the same price as we're already paying for full-serve.

To repeat a point I stumbled upon earlier but I think may be particularly apt, since we don't buy gas from unmanned gas stations, we are already paying for the labor costs involved. If all the gas stations in the market, then, could choose full-service or self-service, the full-service ones might charge a premium for it. But in terms of basic costs, it likely wouldn't actually cost them more to provide it.

Obviously I'm making some assumptions, but I think they're plausible ones based on what I've observed in Massachusetts, California, and New Jersey.

If we think the service is worth maintaining - and clearly I do, but most of you don't - the mandate is necessary or else the market will drive it away. And I sense I might be alone here, but that doesn't give me warm fuzzies...

[Alfred Weeks Jr]

Greetings all, I would like to put my five cents (more like a dollar's worth) in this discussion since I am one of those gas jockeys here in Oregon.

I would like to say that Larry is incorrect, the law does not protect small gas stations from the big guys, its purpose was originally to protect the safety of the general public and the environment from customers who don't have a clue how to operate gas pumps (and this was especially true in the 1950s). But its now used to create jobs for Oregonians with limited or no experience in other fields.

Now have any of you been to or heard of a town in Pennsylvania called Mount Pleasant? Its a small town about 40 miles southeast of Pittsburgh. This town was a lot like the rest of Pennsylvania, self service gas stations. But some bozo didn't know what he was doing and ended up spilling over 50 gallons of gas in the sewer system. After this little blunder (and costly clean up), the city passed an ordinence requiring that all gas stations in the town have attendents with 15 feet of any customer that is pumping his/her own gas. As a result, most residents just let the attendents pump the gas for them (de facto full service). There has been a push to bring this to the rest of the state but nothing so far. BTW, I would not mind seeing Oregon's Law changed to match Mt. Pleasant's, allowing legal self service but protecting our jobs too).

Cathy, you are correct, the reason New Jersey's gas prices are so much lower then the surrounding states is due to much lower taxes on gas in the state. In addition to the federal tax rate of 18.4 cents, New Jersey charges only 14.5 cents a gallon, by contrast, New York's is 22.6 cents, Pennsylvania's is 25.9 cents, and Delaware's is 23 cents, plus Maryland is 23.5, and Connecticut is 25 cents, all per gallon of Unleaded gas. The cost of the attendent staff is small in comparison to the difference in taxes.

True Larry, I don't understand why many stations in the self serve states offer full serve and at a reasonable price. Doing a little research based on data I have with Safeway, it costs less then FIVE cents a gallon to offer full service to our customers (50 to 75 cents per fill up in the average car). ANYONE THAT TELLS YOU THAT WITH THE REPEAL OF OUR LAWS (OR and NJ), THAT GAS PRICES WILL GO DOWN A LOT ARE LIEING TO YOU.

Sigivald, that is exactly it, it does create jobs at a very small cost to consumers. And yes, the attendents are often unskilled workers of high school age or college age (but many of my co-workers are also of retirement age too). You probably did not consider that, although we start out unskilled, WE DON'T STAY THAT WAY! I have worked as a gas jockey for over 10 months and know how to safely pump gas into all types of vehicles. Much better then the average customer could and most apprecaite our work (especially in fowl weather). We are often at odds with our managers and the corperate pen pushers who don't often schedule or hire enough gas attendents to safely and quickly handle the load. They are now asking us to sell merchandise like candy and soda without hiring more people to handle that extra work (at least so far).

I also support these laws to protect the elderly and handicapped customers. When was the last time in a self service gas station, can one of these people get help from the attendents like the ADA requires. Most of these places have only one, maybe two employees and those almost never leave the cash registar. And finding gas stations in self serve states that also offer full service is extremely rare now a days (not to mention most of those charge WAY TOO MUCH for the full service, five cents a gallon is more then acceptable, but most probably charge up to 25 cents a gallon).

I couldn't agree with more Cathy (in your last post), if Oregon loses this law, you can kiss any sort of full service Goodbye. Arco sure would get rid of its attendents in no time. They tried to overturn the oregon law in court back in the mid 80s and failed (probably after backing a ballot measure to repeal the law and also failed). You are very correct, the estimated labor costs is about Four to Five cents a gallon and its very likely that self service prices would stay the same and they would OVERCHARGE for full service, probably to get people not to use it and justify eliminating it.

Also, there has been news about gasoline theft at self service gas stations, here in Oregon (and NJ too I suspect). Gas theft is much less of a problem since its more diffacult for thieves to steal the gas.

[Ken]

As you've been hearing from others, the self-serve ban in Oregon is rather popular with the residents, myself included. You mention that prices in Oregon must be higher because of it, but it isn't true. If you compare the average price among the states, you would see no correlation between self-serve bans and gas prices.

Further, you have to keep in mind that comparing Oregon gas prices to self-serv prices in other states is and apples to oranges comparison. Compare attendant-served gas prices in Oregon with attendant-served prices in other states, and you'll see that Oregon prices are MUCH lower.

As for the assisted suicide law that you mentioned, that was not a legislated law. It was an initiative petition, put on the ballot and passed by voters.

[Alfred Weeks Jr]

UPDATE: You have that right Ken, Oregon and NJ's prices are MUCH LOWER then full serve prices in other states. I recently returned from a trip to Washington DC and I was appalled at the outragious price a local station in NW DC was charging for "FULL SERVE". It was 50 cents a gallon (above the self serve price), 5 to 10 times the actual cost of the labor involved. In Oregon (and NJ), its approximately five cents a gallon to pay the labor, I suspect it might be up to 10 cents for a station that does not charge everyone for that labor.

attendant pumping also affects insurance rates for gas stations... I love the right-wingers who shoot from the hip without full information.
-- former secretary, green party of oregon

[Tony Vallencourt]

A lively discussion about this issue between two economists (one from Oregon) can be found here. That is the last post in a series of 6 over two blogs. The first one can be found here.

[Gary Wood]

Do you Know how many gas stations there are in Oregon
rsvp

[Tony Vallencourt]

In 2002, there were 1146

[Aaron Macomber]

Almost every other state in the union has choice as to whether you want to pay for full service or not. The Oregon Democrats like choice in every other matter it seems. I just LOVE how everyone thinks that pumping your own gas is so difficult and dangerous.

I guess people from Vancouver have been raised to be more prepared to handle this horrible threat to their existence than us Portlanders..

[Peter]

I'm not the only person who doesn't like going to Oregon simply because of the gas issue, without exception everyone I talk to about it thinks its absurd but none of them live in the state.

People should have the right to pump their own gas and not have to entrust their keys (locking gas caps) and credit cards to high school kids when they can just get out and swipe their own cards and pump their own gas... It's not that hard.

I don't want to wait in line which happens most of the time because the station is ususally under-staffed. This only contributes to air pollution and wastes my time for what?

People should have a right to choose and those who believe that self serve isn't for them should respect the fact that not everyone believes as they do. If there is a market for full/semi stations will work to meet the demand.

As far as a source of employment which from what I understand to be the real reason behind these laws where does this kind of nonsense end? Should every department store be required to have a person walk around the store all day with nothing to do except watch for burnt out lightbulbs so that they can be replaced the instant they burn out? After all someone might not be able to see as well without the normal count of lights possibly causing them to trip and fall had the light not have been replaced immediatly.

I would hate to work at a job where I wasn't needed. I simply do not accept that a determined individual could not otherwise find a job regardless of their qualifications.

[asp55]

A couple of things:

In self-serve states in order to meet ADA requirements, that "one person" at the register mentioned in an earlier comment must leave their register in order to provide full-serve at self-serve prices to anyone who is disabled. (To get this service, a disabled person just needs to tap their horn.)

Gas Theft:
This is a ridiculous concept. When was the last time you were at a gas station that didn't require you to pre-pay? I have yet to.

The real issue to me:
Time. Today for example it took me just short of a half hour to get about 8 gallons put in my car. Back in California it would have taken me about 6 minutes, and my station only has 8 pumps (The one I was at today had 16). A previous comment mentioned attendants being at odds with management and as a result being understaffed. I feel for this, I really do, but as a result service is slow as heck. I realize residents are fond of full-serve as they see it as convenience, but I honestly believe that's because they grew up with it. It's just not convenient.

[C.J.]

Please, the law in Oregon is ridiculous! I can get out of my car, pump the gas, and pay quicker than the $7.00/hour attendant. The fact is that the Pacific Northwest has a large population of obese people, so it wouldn’t hurt to burn a few calories getting out of your twinkie infested car to fuel up (and not buy more junk food).

[Jim]

The ADA does not require the attendant to pump gas for a handicapped person if he is the only one there. Honking your horn does nothing, because too many people use their horn and they simply ignore it. If I pull up for gas in my Vette or Harley and they spilled gas on my paint, I am afraid I'd have to thump their heads on the blacktop. I am not a retarded democRAT or left wing liberal. I know how to pump gas. Heck, I drilled oil and gas wells in Oklahoma, can that high school drop out do that without getting hurt? Didn't think so.

[Sean]

First off, all you people that don't live in Oregon need to have an open mind. Oregon is a pretty messed up place compared to other states (meaning the full service gas station, no sales tax, bottle deposits, etc.) It's like you're scared to see something different.
You can't expect everywhere to be just like home. If everywhere was just like home, then why would you ever leave?And boo-hoo if you go to a gas station and wait an extra minute or two. Are you really so busy that you're going to go home and whine about it to people on the internet? You wasted more time on here then you did getting gas in Oregon.

I work at a gas station, but guess what? I'm not a high-school dropout! I know, it is astonishing, but I graduated and I'm actually attending a four-year university! And GET THIS: I plan to get my Masters after that! Who would have though, a stupid high school kid could do something like that?!

Does Oregon need people to pump your gas for you? Absolutely not. I do feel useless for working at a gas station considering the fact that you ignorant jerks make me feel that way. But I've seen some of you people from out of state try and pump your own gas and try to top it off and spill it on the ground and on your precious little paint job and creating something for me to clean up. I've seen it a thousand times over. You think you know it all and that we can't do our job safely but in reality I do it better than you can. It's like you don't know safety, either. I've seen people from out of state roll up smoking. I've seen you roll up and leave your car on. I've seen you leave your lights on so your car dies and then you want to jump start it right in the middle of the station, which is just ridiculous. I swear some of you have a death wish, for you and me.

Gas prices are a little bit higher in Oregon as of right now, but I remember a few months ago it was at least 20 cents cheaper than the surrounding states, and you even told me so.

I dislike the majority of people from out of state that come through my station. Why? Because you treat me like I'm stupid, and like I'm lesser than you. You've called me stupid, but let me tell you this: I know for a fact I've learned more and done more with my life so far than some of you have. So next time you visit this amazing state, which has by far the best city to live in (Portland), just remember that not every gas station attendant is a high school drop out. You underestimate some of us and it really, REALLY, pisses me off that you stereotype me so badly. If you piss us off, we will spill gas on your car, or maybe not put your gas cap on tight enough. Trust me, we all do it.

[Kevin]

Sean makes, in my opinion, a poetic and compelling case against mandatory full service.

[Aaron Macomber]

Along with Kevin, I would have to say that Sean is EXACTLY the reason why we need to get rid of full-serve in Oregon. Sean you may not be stupid, but you sure know how to act like it! You may have made a few tiny points to support your position, but you far outweighed those by most of the reactionary, exaggerated statements riddled throughout your statement. I wish you luck in your educational endeavors, but keep this in mind; education can make you more learned, but it can't make you more intelligent. The best thing it could do for you is make you more mature.

[Sean]

Tell me, where am I wrong? I am standing up for myself while you two are just trying to bring me down. I've learned a lot about people from working at a gas station, while you obviously have not. You are selfish. You can't look at the bright side of things. Since everyone likes to stereotype, let me bring some into the mix. I bet Kevin and Aaron are republicans. They probably drive a fancy car or a giant diesel truck that contributes to the amazingly high pollution and ozone burning problem we already have that stems from America. By not having people pump their own gas it helps the environment. Our pathetic dependency on gas is one of the leading, if not the most contributing cause to pollution and ozone depletion. Do you just not like my argument because I tell the truth? Does my being human not phase you at all? Please tell why you have to be ruthless. Why am I not intelligent? Am I not mature because I see the truth? I know you're blind to everything that goes on outside of your pretty little lives. It's people like you that make America a painful place to live.

Why am I getting mad at you for bashing on me and then I go bash on you? Because you obviously think it's acceptable to be an asshole to anyone you want to, so I'll go and do the same. Yeah, that's not being mature, but you aren't either. If you're going to tell me I'm not making any points, then go and make some yourself and do a little research instead of getting mad that you have to wait in line somewhere. If you think a gas station attendant is useless, then why isn't a cashier at a grocery store? There are self-scan registers at a lot of stores now. Why go out and buy Taco Bell or McDonalds when you can make a burrito and burger at home? Because you're too fat and lazy to do it yourself. Fine restaurants is another thing; that's fine delicious eating that you can't recreate yourself. Why take your car to get an oil change when you could do it yourself? Because you don't want to get your precious ivory hands dirty. Why put premium in your BMW when you can get regular unleaded? Because you're a cheapskate.

Please, complain to me about contradicting myself. I don't care anymore, because there are still some nice people, like myself, on planet earth that appreciate me. If you can't respect people that respect you, then get the hell off this planet. You pollute and ruin this place in more ways than one.